Electrical Oppos - need halp

"HammerheadFistpunch" (hammerheadfistpunch) 02/03/2019 at 03:40 • Filed to: None

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I need to figure out a wiring diagram for some relays

3 way switch on-off-on

Position 1 is the trigger for a relay to close and supply power to lights

Position 2 is open circuit (no power to the circuit)

Position 3 triggers the circuit power relay to close and then switch to another relay that uses the reverse lights as the trigger.

So what I want here is to not have high current sent to the switch, only use it as a trigger switch (it can handle the current but the distance between the switch and relay/fuses makes running heavier wire impractical).

P ositions 1 and 3 both energize the power circuit.

However in position 3 in addition to turning on the power it needs disconnect power to the lights except when triggered by the reverse light signal

I want to use no more than 2 relays and I’ve tried every combination my sleep addled brain can conjure and I got nothing.

The tricky bit for sure is telling one relay to close for both events but keeping that relay closed while telling another relay to start looking for trigger signals from the reverse light with the default state open.

I know how to do it with 3 relays or by running all the power through the switch but I’ m hoping to avoid that.

pip bip - choose Corrour > HammerheadFistpunch 02/03/2019 at 04:41

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i offer nothing, as i know sweet fa about electrical wiring

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > HammerheadFistpunch 02/03/2019 at 06:33

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I suspect you need a switch like a double point double throw or greater which means you have a single switch doing more than one thing at the same time...but it's late here too and I'm a half a bottle or more of wine in....

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > pip bip - choose Corrour 02/03/2019 at 06:35

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But but but....but...you exchange airbags!!!!! You are a bomb technician! And you know nothing about keeping smoke in wires? How?

pip bip - choose Corrour > SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media 02/03/2019 at 06:39

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it’s a gift

SilentButNotReallyDeadly...killed by G/O Media > pip bip - choose Corrour 02/03/2019 at 06:49

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Plug and run?

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > HammerheadFistpunch 02/03/2019 at 07:59

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Easy. One relay to turn on the lights, triggered by both switch position 1 or power from reverse light circuit, but the signal feed from the reverse lights has the second relay in it that won’t connect power unless the switch is in position 3.

If your “three way switch” is an open-centre single pole double throw switch (one voltage source sent to either position 1 or 3) it will drain your battery if left in position 3 with the engine off, unless your 12v feed to the switch comes from the ignition (or headlight?)  switch. If you want to set it up to be able to switch on the lights with no key in the ignition, but eliminate forgetting it in position 3 and draining the battery, then you’d want an open-centre double pole double throw switch, which would connect a constant 12v source to position 1, and switched power to position 3.

McMike > HammerheadFistpunch 02/03/2019 at 09:18

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Are these for extra reverse lights?

Pos1 - extra lights forced on

Pos2 - regular reverse lights

Pos3 - extra lights on with reverse lights

If so, I think you can do with with one relay and one DPST switch, and I’ll sketch something up.

HammerheadFistpunch > McMike 02/03/2019 at 10:11

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exactly this. I’m very interested to see if you can do it with dpst because the problem i have is there is no open position on those. just closed on a or b but always one or the other. you can do it if you want all the current to go through the such but i don’t. at least as far as i can work out.

these lights will be 12v direct from battery on a new circuit not powered off the cars 12 existing reserve lights.

HammerheadFistpunch > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 02/03/2019 at 10:22

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can you show me a diagram? I’ve tried every permutation of switch and relay i can think of and i can’t get it to do exactly what i want.

McMike > HammerheadFistpunch 02/03/2019 at 11:04

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The green is a jumper.

When the switch is in in up position, it takes the pink 12v and sends it to the relay trigger (forced on)

When the switch is in the lower position, it takes the spliced blue signal from the reverse circuit, and sends it to the relay trigger. (will only come on when the reverse lights are on.

Middle position does nothing and the reverse lights will work as normal.

The only heavy wiring you’ll need is the red from the battery to the relay to the super lamp, everything else can be relativity small. That pink wire from the battery for the switch can come from anywhere. I would tap into anything that’s always hot under the dash like a cigarette lighter or something.

The trick is to find a decent looking on-off-on six terminal DPDT switch.

https://www.amazon.com/WINOMO-Heavy-Toggle-Switch-Waterproof/dp/B075XM68QV

HammerheadFistpunch > McMike 02/03/2019 at 11:35

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well crap... that's exactly it. i knew i was missing something obvious. a million thanks

Urambo Tauro > McMike 02/03/2019 at 13:21

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Elegant! Very nice.

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > HammerheadFistpunch 02/03/2019 at 13:32

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Clearly you haven’t because it’s a very simple bit of wiring.

As I said, the switch in position 1 and the primary relay are just the standard switch and relay setup.

The only complicated part that really isn’t complicated at all is that you also want to be able to trigger the lights from the reverse light circuit, so you also run a trigger wire from the reverse light circuit to the primary relay. But you want it to only trigger from the reverse lights in switch position 3, so you stick a secondary relay into the trigger wire from the reverse lights that only completes that circuit from the reverse lights to the primary relay when the secondary relay is triggered by the signal from position 3 on the switch.

The load from the lights is only carried by whatever you have feeding pin 87 of the primary relay.

Again you’ll want to be careful where with where you’re getting power to the switch. Because if that top 12v supply is constant hot, you’ll drain the battery sitting in position 3. It might be worthwhile adding an LED or something that comes on near the switch in position 3 to remind you it’s on. Or get power to the switch from like, the headlight circuit, or some other circuit that you don’t mind having to use in order to enable  your super-backup lights, that will be very obvious if you leave switched on. 

HammerheadFistpunch > gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee 02/03/2019 at 14:55

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but that interrupts reverse light signal unless it’s a normally closed relay o n the reverse circuit, in which case the switch would open it disabling it

HammerheadFistpunch > McMike 02/03/2019 at 15:07

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Im going to use these

http://www.wiringdepot.com/20-amp-12-volt-d-p-d-t-carling-style-rocker-switches.aspx

McMike > HammerheadFistpunch 02/03/2019 at 16:07

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Cool. Sometimes marine suppliers have the best 12v stuff.

I did something similar with my van. There were three dome lights, and they all had a on/off/door switch on them. It wasn’t a problem unless a passenger needed some light, and started fucking with the switch. Then, at a later point, I had to go back through them and set them all to “door” until it happened again.

I wired in an extra switch into the dash, which the circuit treated as another door switch. Whenever anyone needed light, I would switch the whole thing on. Problem solved.

I also have floor lighting wired to the door circuit too. It all comes on at once when you open a door. I also wired a on/off/door switch into the dash that allowed me to control the floor lighting the same way you are the extra reverse lights. By default I have it set to “door” but it’s nice to have sometimes have some floor lighting for passengers while on the move.

Then there’s this.... :)

HammerheadFistpunch > McMike 02/03/2019 at 16:46

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it doesn’t hurt that the Toyota has the full size pop outs and I have 2 blanks.

What do you do for your house battery setup?  voltage relay?  manual?  Im not 100% with the idea of a dedicated house battery yet but it really would be nice.

McMike > HammerheadFistpunch 02/03/2019 at 22:25

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Combiner: https://www.yandina.com/c100InfoR3.htm It’s totally automatic. Combines when the car is on, separates when it’s off. You can install a switch to force either one if you like (I did)

Install thread: https://www.thesamba.com/vw/forum/viewtopic.php?t=246921 God, I forgot how long ago that was.

I love being able to run the lights and radio for hours and not have to worry about having a flat battery to start the car. Hell, since all the interior lighting is LED, I could probably have light for DAYS with the 44Ah house battery I have. It’s also nice to know that I could pull out the jumper cables and jump myself if I had to.

gogmorgo - rowing gears in a Grand Cherokee > HammerheadFistpunch 02/04/2019 at 07:25

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What are you trying to do? Because this does what you said you want in the post. You never said what your end goal was, but it looks to me like you’re wiring a set of lights that you want to have come on 1) when you hit a switch, 2) not at all ever, or 3) automatically when the reverse lights come on.

Both relays are standard automotive relays, which can be set up as either or both normally open and closed, but in this case both function as normally open relays .

The primary relay (at the bottom of the diagram) is always what turns on the lights. The secondary relay completes a circuit between the reverse lights and the trigger pin for the primary relay.

Switch position 1 directly energizes the primary relay, which turns on the light(s).

Switch position 2 does not energize either relay, so the light(s) will never come on .

Switch position 3 energizes only the secondary relay, which allows the trigger wire from the reverse lights to energize the primary relay and turn on the lights, but only if there’s power coming from the reverse light circuit. It does not directly energize the primary relay, it only permits the reverse light curcuit to do so. The trigger wire from the reverse light circuit is in parallel with the reverse lights, not in series, so the relay and auxiliary lighting circuit would have no effect on normal reverse light function.

I’m not sure I can explain it any other way. If it doesn’t do what you want it’s because you haven’t properly explained what you want it to do.